MIG23 поверните тариф,угловойая скорость

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nemesis

новичок
я хочу знать угловойую скорость, тариф поворота flogger, любой диаграммы??, также предел г SU15 баки

im использующ переводить (dont I говорит русского) :D


некоторы данные

f15 340 узлов 7gs
f15c 400-420 узлов 9gs
mig29-f16 370-380 узлов 9gs
su27 320-290 узлов 9gs

mig23...?????..8gs
 
Это сообщение редактировалось 09.02.2005 в 05:15
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nemesis

новичок
некоторы данные

орел f15C 400-420 узлов 9gs
предыдущий орел f15 340 узлов 7gs
сокол f16 380 узлов 9gs
mig29 370 узлов 9gs
su27 320-290 узлы 9gs
mig21 280-300 узлы 7gs

mig23???????....8gs
 

Zeus

Динамик

You'd better write in English, it's a challenge to translate it back in hope to understand what you mean :)

About roll rate, I didn't find anything valuable for you. I've got heaps of data for low airspeeds (<500 km/h) and not much more. MiG-23UB Flight manual (at least the parts I've got) doesn't have the data.

I don't know if this is of any help for you, but the only real data I found (sweep angle 45°) is the derivative of the roll rate by the control deflection. This derivative indicates control efficiency.

Roll is controlled (mainly) by differential deflection of the horizontal stabiliser (MiG-23 doesn't have ailerons; spoilers are used at low sweep angle, but this is taken into account for the derivatives). The deflection angle is calculated as the half difference between the angles of the left and right halves of the stabiliser. That is, if the stabiliser is trimmed at -5°, for the effective roll deflection of, say, 3° (positive deflection for roll left), the left half will be set at -8° and the right half at -2° (negative sign means aircraft nose up elevator deflection).

Maximum effective roll deflection at low sweep angles is ±10° (or until physical limit is reached - this may happen at high elevator deflections, as this is the same control surface).

Now, the (maximum, i.e. static) roll rate is calculated as the _(roll_control_derivative)*(deflection)_. The dependency may not be that linear at extreme conditions, but generally shows very good linear behaviour in normal (subsonic) regimes.

In turn, the derivative depends on airspeed. For the airspeeds I have the data for, it is highly linear as well. You can interpolate (and extrapolate up to, I think, ~800 km/h) it to obtain the values for any airspeed using two base points:

-0.062 [rad/s/deg] for V=300 km/h and -0.1 [rad/s/deg] for V=400 km/h. Note the units: the resulting angular velocity is in rad/s, but the derivative reflects the deflection in degrees.

That all means, that for maximum deflection of -10° the maximum roll rate at 400 km/h will be 1 rad/s (~57 deg/s). And about 2.5 rad/s (140 deg/s) at 800 km/h.

Also note that the airspeed here is the indicated airspeed; that is, equivalent to zero altitude dynamic pressure. For zero altitude, it is the same as true airspeed; at higher altitudes, the true airspeed is higher.

As for Su-15, I don't have anything at hand.

Администраторы (всех видов), погодите пока переносить в англоязычный, а то товарищ не найдет :)
И животноводство!  

Zeus

Динамик

nemesis> mig23???????....8gs [»]

Wow, now I really don't understand what you mean. Turn rate? Or maximum load factor? They are correlated, but not directly...

As for the latter, from the flight manual:

Sweep angle 16°
Max 4.5g / 3g with drop tanks

Sweep angle 45°
Max 6.5g / 3g with fuselage drop tank; no wing drop tanks allowed

Sweep angle 72°
Max 7g / no drop tanks allowed


If the remaining fuel is more than 2000 litres, or 2750 litres if clean, the maximum load factor is less one of that shown above.
И животноводство!  
Это сообщение редактировалось 09.02.2005 в 05:58

AK

опытный

Это несколько ранее постил Flogger:
Прикреплённые файлы:
7.jpg (скачать) [91 кБ]
 
8.jpg (скачать) [78 кБ]
 
9.jpg (скачать) [84 кБ]
 
 
Вы думаете легко быть Главным Злодеем в мире животных?
Всегда одно и то же, одно и то же...
 

AK

опытный

Ответная просьба: такие же графики для F4E, если возможно.

The reciprocal request: the same diagramm for F4E if it's possible.
Sorry for my English. :D
Вы думаете легко быть Главным Злодеем в мире животных?
Всегда одно и то же, одно и то же...
 
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nemesis

новичок
thanks zeus, very interesting info, but is refered on the mig23ub, we know that the trainers are somewhat less stressed, also the data is with fuel tanks and that reduce the permissible g limit.

the turn rate is directly relacionated with the speed and the g load, for an example, the f4 phantom is an 7gs plane, also the f15a or mig21, this doesnt mean that the phantom or eagle have the same max turn rate, because the eagle have an corner speed (at 7gs) lower than f4, but in the higher f4s corner speed both planes have similar turn performance, thats the reason of the better su27 turn, despite is an 9gs plane (like the f15c or f16) the flanker performs 27-29º/sec, because it have lower corner speed, the data that i want is the mig23 corner speed at 8gs or 8.5gs (mig23mld)

regards
 

Zeus

Динамик

nemesis> the turn rate is directly relacionated with the speed and the g load

Mechanically yes; however you'll want to be sure that 1) you can maintain this speed at this g-load, that is, you have enough thrust, and 2) you can reach such a g-load. Although the aircraft is stress limited at, say, 8.5g (23MLD), it can be troublesome to reach it at higher altitude/mass etc. The elevator efficiency has some effect too, but usually in supersonic flight.

Note all we talk about is steady turn. Of course you can reach high g-loads in some other regimes - for a short time only.

>for an example, the f4 phantom is an 7gs plane, also the f15a or mig21

BTW, latter versions of MiG-21, namely 21bis, have 8g max load.

nemesis> the data that i want is the mig23 corner speed at 8gs or 8.5gs (mig23mld)

Then you should look at the first of the three scans posted above. It is directly related to your question. Solid lines are for the MiG-23ML with two R-23 missiles (sorry, don't know the NATO designation), weight 12700 kg; dotted lines - for the MiG-23UB with 4 R-3S, m = 13100 kg. Higher pairs of curves on both diagrams are for full afterburner thrust, lower ones for no afterburner max thrust. The top graph is for the altitude of 1000 m, the another one - for 5000 m.

As you can see, the best 23ML with two missiles can do is 7g sustained load at ~1030 km/h (indicated airspeed; true airspeed will be ~1080 km/h, 300 m/s), H = 1000 m. The load is actually thrust-limited. This gives ( g/V * sqrt(ny2 - 1) ) ~13 deg/sec turn rate.

However, this is not usually the best conditions for the quickest turn, the optimal speed is lower and the dependency is smoother. The best value (based on the same load curve) I could get is 13.54 deg/s at ~860 km/h IAS. This corresponds to ny = 6.1 (btw note that the English (or rather Western) designation for this unit is often nz).

nemesis, I will join this topic with your thread ( Mig 23 corner speed-turn rate) in the English subforum ( Форумы Авиабазы ) soon, please don't be surprised :) I did not notice it before because I don't have this subforum in my bookmarks :unsure:
И животноводство!  
Это сообщение редактировалось 11.02.2005 в 14:53

Darth

опытный

Zeus> R-23 missiles (sorry, don't know the NATO designation)

Позор на вашу голову: вот что значит в игрушки не играть! Когда-нить слышали фразу "Engaged defensive, Apex!" ? :)

P.S.: В очередной раз спасибо за науку, интересные вещи рассказываете ;)
 
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nemesis

новичок
ohhhh, hell, im a idiot!!!! :D:D:D

i didnt see the AK atachments, i had the thread in outline mode!!!! :P

thanks AK :) !!!!

interesting diagram i think that is the diagram at sustained turn (not instantanius), also the f16 have the best sustained turn near M0.9 pulling 8gs, with an turn of near 15-16º/sec, the mig 23 at sustained perform very similar like the mig21s 10-12º/sec sustained, the mig23 7gs sounds very logic, since the flooger have an g limit of 8-8.5 below M0.85 and 7gs above 0.85 to supersonic, i think that i must be more specifical, so i will put an exapmle;

mig21 turn performance

sustained near 1100km/h 10-12º/sec
instantaneus near 550km/h 20-24º/sec (depends of the version)
 
US Аналитик #16.02.2005 04:51
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Аналитик

втянувшийся

Nemesis, what is your first language? Looks like it's not English.
 
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nemesis

новичок
[/QUOTE]Nemesis, what is your first language? Looks like it's not English.[QUOTE]


ya pues hombre, me agarrastes!!!!! :D:D:D , mi primer idioma es el español, hablo mas o menos el ingles , y no tengo ni remota idea acerca del ruso!!!! :D:D :D, pero se bastante acerca de la industria aeroespacial ....spanish

about the topic Аналитик, could you help me with the meaning of the graphics??, i know that are energy-maneuvre diagrams, i think that the first is the gs with external stores, the second is at 24º aoa (its the max AOA???),and the last the gs at 1000mts with an internal total weight of 13 tons, sustained turn change with the height, but i dont know if the diagram is for sustained or instantaneus gs.

anyone could confirm that comparation of russian pilots that claimed the maneuverability of the mig23mld is similar with the f15c???

saludos a todos!!! :)
 
Это сообщение редактировалось 17.02.2005 в 06:54

Zeus

Динамик

nemesis> about the topic Аналитик, could you help me with the meaning of the graphics??, i know that are energy-maneuvre diagrams, i think that the first is the gs with external stores, the second is at 24º aoa (its the max AOA???),and the last the gs at 1000mts with an internal total weight of 13 tons, sustained turn change with the height, but i dont know if the diagram is for sustained or instantaneus gs.

I thought I explained the first graph. It is a max sustained load, for two types (ML & UB), for two altitudes (1000 and 5000 m), for manoeuvring configuration with the sweep angle of 45 deg. With stores (different for the two types).

The second and third diagrams are closely related: it is the max. available load, i.e. for an instantaneous turn, vs. Mach and indicated airspeed respectively.

The second diagram shows max. load factor for three altitudes (1, 5 and 10 km) for sweep angle 45 deg and for the alt. 1 km for all three sweep angles. The third diagram shows the same only for low altitude (1 km) and 45 deg sweep, but for two masses (13 and 14 t.)

24° is the 'typical sustained' max AOA for sweep angle (chi for short) 45 & 72 deg (increased to 26° on 23MLD, AFAIK), 18° for chi=16 deg. However, it depends on many factors, and if the SAS (stability augmentation system) is engaged, AOA can reach up to 28° (20° for chi=16) for a short time. The limit on the SAS is shown in solid lines on the third diagram. Additionally, it depends on the type of SAS installed (with or without cross-coupling) and types of manoeuvre.

nemesis> anyone could confirm that comparation of russian pilots that claimed the maneuverability of the mig23mld is similar with the f15c???

Never heard such claims. The best I am aware of is like '...approaching that of F-15 (16) in some situations/manoeuvres/aspects, and even exceeding in acceleration'.
И животноводство!  

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