<SwingKid>
инфо
инструменты
Lucas
<anonymous>
Drakonid
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Help with Mi-24/Shturm-V
Теги:
Hello,
There is a growing disagreement between western and Russian aviation journalists on the subject of the Mi-24 and the Shturm-V missile. I would like some help to understand the true Russian opinion.
1) There is a story that an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4. Western sources reported that the weapon used was a Shturm-V antitank missile. Russian sources reported that the weapon used was an unguided S-8 rocket. It seems western journalists have discovered their error, and because of this are now claiming that the combat did not happen at all. What is the Russian side of the story? Is there any proof?
2) The US Army purchased Shturm-V missiles in 1980 through France, and in 1990 from Poland. During testing, it was determined that the weapon had a hit probability of 5% against slow-moving vehicles (less than 15 km/h). Viktor Markovsky and Yefim Gordon, however, reported that in Afghanistan the Shturm-V had a hit probability of 75-80% against mobile targets (although they admitted that the mudjaheddin did not have many such targets). What is the true story?
3) Is it true that Iraqi film of US aircraft damaged in air-to-air combat by Mi-24, MiG-29 and MiG-23 was shown on Russian television, and not reported in the west?
Because of my computer, I am unable to post or search for messages in Russian. If this topic has been discussed previously, please provide a link. Thank you very much for your assistance, it's difficult to obtain Russian literature in the West.
Best regards,
-SK
There is a growing disagreement between western and Russian aviation journalists on the subject of the Mi-24 and the Shturm-V missile. I would like some help to understand the true Russian opinion.
1) There is a story that an Iraqi Mi-24 shot down an Iranian F-4. Western sources reported that the weapon used was a Shturm-V antitank missile. Russian sources reported that the weapon used was an unguided S-8 rocket. It seems western journalists have discovered their error, and because of this are now claiming that the combat did not happen at all. What is the Russian side of the story? Is there any proof?
2) The US Army purchased Shturm-V missiles in 1980 through France, and in 1990 from Poland. During testing, it was determined that the weapon had a hit probability of 5% against slow-moving vehicles (less than 15 km/h). Viktor Markovsky and Yefim Gordon, however, reported that in Afghanistan the Shturm-V had a hit probability of 75-80% against mobile targets (although they admitted that the mudjaheddin did not have many such targets). What is the true story?
3) Is it true that Iraqi film of US aircraft damaged in air-to-air combat by Mi-24, MiG-29 and MiG-23 was shown on Russian television, and not reported in the west?
Because of my computer, I am unable to post or search for messages in Russian. If this topic has been discussed previously, please provide a link. Thank you very much for your assistance, it's difficult to obtain Russian literature in the West.
Best regards,
-SK
Lucas
новичок
Dear SwingKid,
Mi-24 was my third helicopter type and I flew more then 400 hours on it during my Air Force service. Unfortunately it was not the main but the favorite one as I liked flying it the most. Shturm is a rather effective missile even now and, according to real practical shooting an average operator can hit more then 50-60 % of targets. An experience crew has an effectiveness of about 80 percent. This figure includes also moving targets such as vehicles, armored machines having speed of 40-60 km and small-size AAA units. Such effectiveness was confirmed in Afghanistan and other countries MI-24 were used in. Usual typical targets for Mi-24 missiles were not tanks as they are not so widely used in local conflicts and wars but anti-aircraft artillery (fixed or installed in jeeps or small tracks). I think you understand that such fast moving and shooting target is more difficult to be hited. Crews of 334th military combat training helicopter center in Torzok town (the leading military center of battle helicopters tactics developing and training of command, flight and ground staff ) miss the targets only in case of missiles defects. Nowadays such problems happened more often but in the time of Afgan war the quality of military production were under very serious control, so the missiles manufactured up to the first part of 90-s should have no any problems.
As for Iranian F-4 shot down by Mi-24 – this is a true confirmed event, as well as some Iraq Mi-24 victories versus Iranian Sea Cobra AH-1 helicopters. Phantom was shot down with Shturm missile, Cobras were mainly destroyed by 12,7mm nose machine guns and 23 mm cannon pods, but some of them were shot by Shturms also.
Unfortunately I haven’t seen the film you mentioned in your message as well as I haven’t event heard about, but I know for sure that anti-Iraq alliance had lost several airplanes shot down by Saddam.
Mi-24 was my third helicopter type and I flew more then 400 hours on it during my Air Force service. Unfortunately it was not the main but the favorite one as I liked flying it the most. Shturm is a rather effective missile even now and, according to real practical shooting an average operator can hit more then 50-60 % of targets. An experience crew has an effectiveness of about 80 percent. This figure includes also moving targets such as vehicles, armored machines having speed of 40-60 km and small-size AAA units. Such effectiveness was confirmed in Afghanistan and other countries MI-24 were used in. Usual typical targets for Mi-24 missiles were not tanks as they are not so widely used in local conflicts and wars but anti-aircraft artillery (fixed or installed in jeeps or small tracks). I think you understand that such fast moving and shooting target is more difficult to be hited. Crews of 334th military combat training helicopter center in Torzok town (the leading military center of battle helicopters tactics developing and training of command, flight and ground staff ) miss the targets only in case of missiles defects. Nowadays such problems happened more often but in the time of Afgan war the quality of military production were under very serious control, so the missiles manufactured up to the first part of 90-s should have no any problems.
As for Iranian F-4 shot down by Mi-24 – this is a true confirmed event, as well as some Iraq Mi-24 victories versus Iranian Sea Cobra AH-1 helicopters. Phantom was shot down with Shturm missile, Cobras were mainly destroyed by 12,7mm nose machine guns and 23 mm cannon pods, but some of them were shot by Shturms also.
Unfortunately I haven’t seen the film you mentioned in your message as well as I haven’t event heard about, but I know for sure that anti-Iraq alliance had lost several airplanes shot down by Saddam.
'Наиболее интересивно среди государств арабского мира боевых действиях использовал Ирак. Вертолеты принимали участие в боях на протяжении всей восьмилетней ирано-иракской войны. В ходе этой войны произошел ставший уже хрестоматийным боевой эпизод: 27 октября 1982 г. Ми-24 ракетой комплекса "Фагот" к северу от Ейн-Хоша сбил иранский "Фантом".'
<<Ми-24 Российский ударный Вертолет>>
<<Ми-24 Российский ударный Вертолет>>
Dear Lucas,
Thank you very much for your reply! I was really surprised to hear from an actual Mi-24 crew member. There are so many questions! I hope you like talking about it.
Here is one: Is it true that the Mi-24 does not fire rockets while performing a stationary hover? The rocket pods look like they are pointed forwards, and not downwards, and videos from Chechnya show the Mi-24 flying and shooting at the same time. Is it difficult to aim such weapons while the helicopter is moving?
And the cannon - which was in your opinion more useful, the steered 12.7 mm rotary, or the fixed 30 mm cannon on the later version of the Mi-24?
Thank you again,
-SK
Thank you very much for your reply! I was really surprised to hear from an actual Mi-24 crew member. There are so many questions! I hope you like talking about it.
Here is one: Is it true that the Mi-24 does not fire rockets while performing a stationary hover? The rocket pods look like they are pointed forwards, and not downwards, and videos from Chechnya show the Mi-24 flying and shooting at the same time. Is it difficult to aim such weapons while the helicopter is moving?
And the cannon - which was in your opinion more useful, the steered 12.7 mm rotary, or the fixed 30 mm cannon on the later version of the Mi-24?
Thank you again,
-SK
Lucas
новичок
To: SwingKid
Mi-24 helicopter allows the crew to use all kind of weapons flying any speed between 0-250 kmh (surely except bomb dropping which starts at 160 kmh and faster). As for missiles launching while hovering its usually used for first times shooting to help the operator not to miss targets in the sight view or for shooting from hided positions not to let enemies see the helicopter. Meanwhile you are in position to shoot missiles while moving aside, flying forward or backward- that is not a problem until the operator see the target.
C-5 and C-8 rockets usually are shot from 150-250 kmh flying helicopter as normal rockets fire distance is between 1500-3000 miters and the helicopter should have some speed reserve to avoid enemy AAA fire. In case of V=225-230 kmh speed, altitude= 840 miters, and -10 (minus ten) degrees pitch angle you’ll get 4500 miters C-8 rocket range, in case of V=225-230, altitude= 925 miters, and -10 degrees pitch angle you get 5000 miters.
Also in case of +25-30 degrees pitch you may get even 17000 miters range but its hard to make a prйcised shooting on such distance. In the same time such shooting is used for heavy-protected big-size targets over hills or forests not to let them see and destroy the aircraft.
Four-barrel 12.7mm nose machine gun as well as 30 mm grenade launcher and 23 mm cannon pods can be used at any speed between 0 and 300 kmh without any problems.
As for Mi-24P with 2-barrel 30mm fixed cannon installed I haven’t flew it as well as the newest one with nose rotary 2-barrel Gsh23 cannon, so I can not tell you anything from my personal experience, but it seems to be more effective to use heavy 30mm cannon version for big conflicts with serious enemies to destroy protected armored vehicles, well prepared positions and light and maneuverable helicopter with 12,7 machine gun is the best for guerillas wars. 23mm cannon is a some intermediate variant to satisfied both requirements.
Mi-24 helicopter allows the crew to use all kind of weapons flying any speed between 0-250 kmh (surely except bomb dropping which starts at 160 kmh and faster). As for missiles launching while hovering its usually used for first times shooting to help the operator not to miss targets in the sight view or for shooting from hided positions not to let enemies see the helicopter. Meanwhile you are in position to shoot missiles while moving aside, flying forward or backward- that is not a problem until the operator see the target.
C-5 and C-8 rockets usually are shot from 150-250 kmh flying helicopter as normal rockets fire distance is between 1500-3000 miters and the helicopter should have some speed reserve to avoid enemy AAA fire. In case of V=225-230 kmh speed, altitude= 840 miters, and -10 (minus ten) degrees pitch angle you’ll get 4500 miters C-8 rocket range, in case of V=225-230, altitude= 925 miters, and -10 degrees pitch angle you get 5000 miters.
Also in case of +25-30 degrees pitch you may get even 17000 miters range but its hard to make a prйcised shooting on such distance. In the same time such shooting is used for heavy-protected big-size targets over hills or forests not to let them see and destroy the aircraft.
Four-barrel 12.7mm nose machine gun as well as 30 mm grenade launcher and 23 mm cannon pods can be used at any speed between 0 and 300 kmh without any problems.
As for Mi-24P with 2-barrel 30mm fixed cannon installed I haven’t flew it as well as the newest one with nose rotary 2-barrel Gsh23 cannon, so I can not tell you anything from my personal experience, but it seems to be more effective to use heavy 30mm cannon version for big conflicts with serious enemies to destroy protected armored vehicles, well prepared positions and light and maneuverable helicopter with 12,7 machine gun is the best for guerillas wars. 23mm cannon is a some intermediate variant to satisfied both requirements.
Drakonid
втянувшийся
SwingKid>3) Is it true that Iraqi film of US aircraft damaged in air-to-air combat by Mi-24, MiG-29 and MiG-23 was shown on Russian television, and not reported in the west?
Hello,
could you give me the link of this movie on the net please? I haven't seen it, and it is quite an interesting thing to see, so i am eager to download it.
Best regards, Drakonid.
Hello,
could you give me the link of this movie on the net please? I haven't seen it, and it is quite an interesting thing to see, so i am eager to download it.
Best regards, Drakonid.
Some people are wise. Some otherwise.
Lucas>Also in case of +25-30 degrees pitch you may get even 17000 miters range but its hard to make a prйcised shooting on such distance.
Кошмар какой! Прямо Град летающий Как же целятся в таком случае?
Кошмар какой!
Прямо Град летающий Как же целятся в таком случае?
Lucas
новичок
примерно так и целятся - навскидку по площадям. Дальность полета С-8 проверял сам, точнее я стрелял (4 ракеты), а оператор по дальномеру прикинул.
Drakonid:
Unfortunately this is unconfirmed. I was asking to verify the claim by "AceAndrew" in the commentary under the Iraq section:
Ирак-1991
Lucas:
Thank you again for your detailed help! I must tell you that our aviation journalists in the west are very poor for reporting the details of Russian aircraft. They make many errors, or they simply accept whatever the American Army tells them. I am struggling to read some Russian books, and in general I have found them to be of much better journalistic standards. However, even here can be found some mistakes, and it's good to write with someone having real experience.
If it pleases you, I would like to discuss more about the Phantom kill in Iraq/Iran. I am presenting to you the results of our research.
On 27 October 1982, the "Baghdad Observer", an Iraqi newspaper, reported that an Mi-24 had destroyed an Iranian F-4 north of Eyn-Khosh using a Shturm-V missile.
Shortly after, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS) translated the article into English and brought it to the west.
For the past 20 years, dozens of English-written articles have provided the details of this combat exactly as they were written in the Baghdad Observer. Authors Zaloga, Isby, Fricker, Taylor, Barnes, and even some Russian sources like Yefim Gordon appear to be guilty of simply copying the FBIS report, and conducting no further investigative research, adding almost no new details. All sources claim that the combat occurred "on 27 October 1982," when in reality this was the date the article appeared in the Baghdad Observer, and so is probably incorrect (perhaps it happened earlier?).
As far as has been determined, neither the Iranian Air Force has any record of an F-4 lost on this day, nor do the US intelligence services which were monitoring the radio traffic over the war have any record of an Mi-24 shooting down an F-4 Phantom.
Now we come to the interesting part.
A Polish author, Michal Mietelski, claimed that the Mi-24 destroyed the F-4 using 12.7 mm machine gun fire.
A Russian author, M. Nikolskiy, laimed that the Mi-24 destroyed the F-4 using unguided rockets (see the quote provided by "anonymous" above).
Unfortunately this is unconfirmed. I was asking to verify the claim by "AceAndrew" in the commentary under the Iraq section:
Ирак-1991
Lucas:
Thank you again for your detailed help! I must tell you that our aviation journalists in the west are very poor for reporting the details of Russian aircraft. They make many errors, or they simply accept whatever the American Army tells them. I am struggling to read some Russian books, and in general I have found them to be of much better journalistic standards. However, even here can be found some mistakes, and it's good to write with someone having real experience.
If it pleases you, I would like to discuss more about the Phantom kill in Iraq/Iran. I am presenting to you the results of our research.
On 27 October 1982, the "Baghdad Observer", an Iraqi newspaper, reported that an Mi-24 had destroyed an Iranian F-4 north of Eyn-Khosh using a Shturm-V missile.
Shortly after, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service (FBIS) translated the article into English and brought it to the west.
For the past 20 years, dozens of English-written articles have provided the details of this combat exactly as they were written in the Baghdad Observer. Authors Zaloga, Isby, Fricker, Taylor, Barnes, and even some Russian sources like Yefim Gordon appear to be guilty of simply copying the FBIS report, and conducting no further investigative research, adding almost no new details. All sources claim that the combat occurred "on 27 October 1982," when in reality this was the date the article appeared in the Baghdad Observer, and so is probably incorrect (perhaps it happened earlier?).
As far as has been determined, neither the Iranian Air Force has any record of an F-4 lost on this day, nor do the US intelligence services which were monitoring the radio traffic over the war have any record of an Mi-24 shooting down an F-4 Phantom.
Now we come to the interesting part.
A Polish author, Michal Mietelski, claimed that the Mi-24 destroyed the F-4 using 12.7 mm machine gun fire.
A Russian author, M. Nikolskiy, laimed that the Mi-24 destroyed the F-4 using unguided rockets (see the quote provided by "anonymous" above).
[ слишком длинный топик - автонарезка ]
At first, these two sources appear to contradict. However, another Russian author, Nikolay Sekach, claims the Mi-24 first fired a salvo of unguided rockets, which "distracted" the Mi-24 pilot, then destroyed him with 12.7 mm machine guns.
Researchers who have studied the speed and distance of the Shturm-V have decided that it would be almost impossible to destroy a fast-moving jet with this weapon. They have looked at the reports of western journalists and realized they all come from the same Iraqi newspaper. They have decided that the event was false.
The Polish and Russian authors, however, change everything. Unlike a guided missile, rockets and guns can be used in large quantities to increase the chances of a fortunate hit. These versions of the story are easier to believe. They are also in some agreement with each other, and are certainly in disagreement with all of the western reports. These authors cannot be accused of simply "copying" FBIS reports or other journalists or anything at all - their stories are different enough to almost contradict. It appears there are sources in Eastern Europe or Russia who know more about this combat event than anyone in the west.
I believe that in some cases, Russian journalists still do not yet understand how hasty and prone to error our journalists are in the west, and sometimes use western publications for details like "the combat occurred on 27 October 1982". This is why I hope someone can tell us more about how the results of this combat were "confirmed" - if I understand correctly, Soviets were working together with the Iraqis in 1982. If there is anyone who could provide more details, this would help me convince my fellow researchers that Russian sources should be taken more seriously. At the moment, they are disappointed and confused with western journalists, and they have a prejudice that Russian sources must be much worse. It's very difficult to get them to believe anything.
Thanks again, best regards from Canada
-SK
Researchers who have studied the speed and distance of the Shturm-V have decided that it would be almost impossible to destroy a fast-moving jet with this weapon. They have looked at the reports of western journalists and realized they all come from the same Iraqi newspaper. They have decided that the event was false.
The Polish and Russian authors, however, change everything. Unlike a guided missile, rockets and guns can be used in large quantities to increase the chances of a fortunate hit. These versions of the story are easier to believe. They are also in some agreement with each other, and are certainly in disagreement with all of the western reports. These authors cannot be accused of simply "copying" FBIS reports or other journalists or anything at all - their stories are different enough to almost contradict. It appears there are sources in Eastern Europe or Russia who know more about this combat event than anyone in the west.
I believe that in some cases, Russian journalists still do not yet understand how hasty and prone to error our journalists are in the west, and sometimes use western publications for details like "the combat occurred on 27 October 1982". This is why I hope someone can tell us more about how the results of this combat were "confirmed" - if I understand correctly, Soviets were working together with the Iraqis in 1982. If there is anyone who could provide more details, this would help me convince my fellow researchers that Russian sources should be taken more seriously. At the moment, they are disappointed and confused with western journalists, and they have a prejudice that Russian sources must be much worse. It's very difficult to get them to believe anything.
Thanks again, best regards from Canada
-SK
Drakonid
втянувшийся
блин, я этот текст на диск сохраню, чтобы Никите демонстрировать! 
Some people are wise. Some otherwise.
Dron
втянувшийся
Let me put a few words in.
First off, you have mentioned that US purchased those missiles and appeared to have achieved 5% efficiency with them.
Now what kind of a figure is that???????? Russians lost their minds and build missile just for the sakes of stockpiling???
Not very trust worthy.
With regard to Mi-24 vs F-4.
Well, even Lucas will have hardtime confirming anything since he was not at the scene.
Only very limited number of people know more than we do. and what we know is that the chopper down a fighter jet - that's all
"my 10 cents, my 2 is free"
First off, you have mentioned that US purchased those missiles and appeared to have achieved 5% efficiency with them.
Now what kind of a figure is that???????? Russians lost their minds and build missile just for the sakes of stockpiling???
Not very trust worthy.
With regard to Mi-24 vs F-4.
Well, even Lucas will have hardtime confirming anything since he was not at the scene.
Only very limited number of people know more than we do. and what we know is that the chopper down a fighter jet - that's all
"my 10 cents, my 2 is free"
Thanks for your comments Dron.
I agree that the 5% figure must be an error. Someone must have mistaken the Falanga for the Shturm-V.
Regarding the F-4, however, there are probably servicemen in Russia today who were in Iraq in 1982 and know exactly what happened. If we don't ask, how can they answer? Perhaps we can ask someone at Torzhok.
Regards,
-SK
I agree that the 5% figure must be an error. Someone must have mistaken the Falanga for the Shturm-V.
Regarding the F-4, however, there are probably servicemen in Russia today who were in Iraq in 1982 and know exactly what happened. If we don't ask, how can they answer? Perhaps we can ask someone at Torzhok.
Regards,
-SK
True.
All we can do now is wait for Lucas.
Btw, nice seeing some fellow countrymen here:)
All we can do now is wait for Lucas.
Btw, nice seeing some fellow countrymen here:)
Lucas
новичок
Well, gentlemen, here am I.
As far as I know the situation with Iranian F-4 was the following:
Two Mi-24 were flying some their own mission and suddenly found out that a couple of F-4 trying to intercept them. F-4 leader attacked one of Mi-24 but it noticed that maneuver in time and hided over a hill. F-4 continued descending keeping the same direction and Mi-24 hovering over the hill rotated and turned on the same course so as soon as F-4 flue over the hill (and Mi-24) the helicopter got it in sight and shoot a missile.
The second F-4 decided to try his luck some next time and immediately left the aria
As far as I know the situation with Iranian F-4 was the following:
Two Mi-24 were flying some their own mission and suddenly found out that a couple of F-4 trying to intercept them. F-4 leader attacked one of Mi-24 but it noticed that maneuver in time and hided over a hill. F-4 continued descending keeping the same direction and Mi-24 hovering over the hill rotated and turned on the same course so as soon as F-4 flue over the hill (and Mi-24) the helicopter got it in sight and shoot a missile.
The second F-4 decided to try his luck some next time and immediately left the aria
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Dron
втянувшийся
Wow Thanks!
Do you know any other details of some INTERESTING dogfights/kills.
Очень не плохой Английский!
Есть ошибки но понять вас легко, даже затылок чесать не приходится.
Do you know any other details of some INTERESTING dogfights/kills.
Очень не плохой Английский!
Есть ошибки но понять вас легко, даже затылок чесать не приходится.
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Создано 10.06.2002
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Создано 10.06.2002
Связь с владельцами и администрацией сайта: anonisimov@gmail.com, rwasp1957@yandex.ru и admin@balancer.ru.
