ВМС КНДР

Snake> У Саттона тоже "от балды"?

У него "хитрее" все. Частично "от балды", частично близко к реальному. Кстати, я заметил, что его страничка по ПЛРБ "Герой Ким Гун Ок" в течении недели подвергалась изменениям дважды. Первичный вариант был реально вообще "от балды", но в течении 2х дней он ее быстро исправил и дополнил.

Rohirrim> У него "хитрее" все. Частично "от балды", частично близко к реальному. Кстати, я заметил, что его страничка по ПЛРБ "Герой Ким Гун Ок" в течении недели подвергалась изменениям дважды. Первичный вариант был реально вообще "от балды", но в течении 2х дней он ее быстро исправил и дополнил.

Все "нормальные" рисовальщики так делают.

Snake> Все "нормальные" рисовальщики так делают.

Не знаю... ))) Многое у него висит без доработок и исправлений. Да и вообще скажу - у меня сложилось чувство, что это не один чел., а несколько, которые публикуют свои материалы под именем Саттона.

Rohirrim> Не знаю... ))) Многое у него висит без доработок и исправлений. Да и вообще скажу - у меня сложилось чувство, что это не один чел., а несколько, которые публикуют свои материалы под именем Саттона.

Может и ты не один человек, ктож в интернете знает

Snake> Может и ты не один человек, ктож в интернете знает

Ну да ну да... Хотя, некоторые "старики" тут таки знают за меня...

Snake> Может и ты не один человек, ктож в интернете знает

Рубен-джан таки один человек! Подтверждаю!

Seafang-45> especially those SC-497 class sub chasers transferred to DPRK (North Korea).

As to my knowledge no SC class chaser was transferred to other country from USSR. Partly they were returned to US in 1954, partly - sunk or dismantled in 1955-1956. Furthermore, DPRK never operated SC-497 class sub chasers - neither before Korean war or after. If I'm not mistaken several of SC chasers were in the lists of PLA Navy (captured from China Nationalist forces), but definitely not in DPRK Navy.

Заведомо извиняюсь, если офф-топ...

sahureka> тем временем северокорейские производители моделей.......

Ну а почему бы и нет. ПЛРБ для КНДР объективно является технологическим прорывом в собственном кораблестроении за последние 50 лет, даже не смотря на то, что проект был разработан на основе уже устаревшего. Так что имеют полное право пиариться.

Не удивлюсь, если вдруг через лет этак 5 на воду будет спущен и относительно современный эсминец УРО с крылатыми ракетами на борту, ракетными системами ПВО и вертолетной палубой, в основе которого будет корпус устаревшего проекта Наджин. Северокорейцы те еще затейники. Все эти Амноки и Туманы, на мой взгляд, лишь отработка технологий для постройки более крупного и относительно современного типа корабля... Аналогично ПЛРБ класса Синпо, на которой обкатали технологии для подводных пусков баллистических ракет. Другое дело, что ресурсов и мощностей пока не хватает для одновременного строительства и ввода в строй ПЛРБ и надводных кораблей. Упор пока делают на подлодках.

Помимо этого, основная проблема у них, кроме скромных ресурсов и мощностей, это радиоэлектроника, которая значительно отстает в своем развитии и уступает практически всем в регионе, но думаю, что и этот момент они решат тихой сапой - что-то у кого-то умыкнут, что-то купят через третьи руки.

Seafang-45>> especially those SC-497 class sub chasers transferred to DPRK (North Korea).
Rohirrim> As to my knowledge no SC class chaser was transferred to other country from USSR. Partly they were returned to US in 1954, partly - sunk or dismantled in 1955-1956. Furthermore, DPRK never operated SC-497 class sub chasers - neither before Korean war or after. If I'm not mistaken several of SC chasers were in the lists of PLA Navy (captured from China Nationalist forces), but definitely not in DPRK Navy.
Rohirrim> Заведомо извиняюсь, если офф-топ...

I was inclined to believe as above, until I read this cable from Pyongyang to Moscow [note distribution list] and the attached photos. These photos (from a North Korean old video) show Bofors 40mm/60 anti-aircraft gun. Another photos of the same time is a Russian BMB-1 or U.S. "K"-gun depth charge projector - from a E. European source, who thought they were from a "SC-497" class sub chaser.

Could this have been on a "K-48" class or earlier Russian-tranferred "MO-IV" [guessing....].

How did North Korea get these Bofors and ASW equipment without them coming from the then-Soviet Union? And, what ship(s) involved becomes the question.

Strictly Secret
reproduction prohibited

Copy Nº 1: distribution list
Copy Nº 2: Stalin
Copy Nº 3: Stalin
Copy Nº 4: Molotov
Copy Nº 5: Malenkov Copy Nº 12:
Copy Nº 6: Beria
Copy Nº 7: Mikoyan
Copy Nº 8: Kaganovich
Copy Nº 9: Bulganin
Copy Nº 10: Vyshinsky
Copy Nº 11: Gromyko
Copy Nº 12: Copy

From PYONGYANG
Nº 16030 1340
30 May 1950

16033 16044

Special. Nº Nº 408-410

SPECIAL
FLASH

To VYSHINSKY (for the Politburo [instantsiya]).

I met with Kim Il Sung, at his request, on 29 May. At the beginning of the conversation, Kim Il Sung reported that the weapons and ammunition, which he had requested during [his] stay in Moscow, had mainly already arrived. The weapons had been transported to the newly formed divisions, and the delivery of weapons to the soldiers would be completed by 1 June. He then reported that he had gone to the new divisions and familiarized himself with the progress of military training and thinks that the divisions will be combat-ready by the end of June.

Kim Il Sung reported that, at his order, the chief of the general staff had finished the drafting of a decision in principle for an attack [nastuplenie]. The chief of the general staff reported the plan to him together with Soviet General Vasil'yev. He approved the decision, which had been made and the choice of the main blow during the attack. He asked me to meet with him, the chief of the general staff, and Soviet General Vasil'yev in order to look over this decision together. I declined such a joint meeting, referring to the fact that I would be familiarized with the decision by General Vasil'yev.

Kim Il Sung then reported that they are finishing organizational issues in the army by 1 June. The navy is somewhat behind as a consequence of the fact that they had still not received one trawler and one large subchaser [okhotnik] from the USSR. [Note: "one trawler" and "one large subchaser" are circled]. The crews for these ships have been chosen, but they are not being trained inasmuch as these ships are not available. He asked me to take appropriate measures to speed up the arrival of the ships. I replied that according to the information available to me the ships would be delivered to Korea at the beginning of June.

[more in this cable, but is unrelated to naval request from Pyongyang.

30 May 1950 SHTYKOV

Seafang-45> I was inclined to believe as above, until I read this cable from Pyongyang to Moscow [note distribution list] and the attached photos. These photos (from a North Korean old video) show Bofors 40mm/60 anti-aircraft gun. Another photos of the same time is a Russian BMB-1 or U.S. "K"-gun depth charge projector - from a E. European source, who thought they were from a "SC-497" class sub chaser.

1. Please post this in appropriate discussion here @"ВМС КНДР"

2. If possible use Google Translate to post it in Russian, as not all forum members are fluent in English and Russian language is one of the major requiremnts here.

3. The possible appearence of Bofors guns in DPRK Navy was already discussed in DPRK Navy topic two years ago (here), so I think it will be correct if you check that discussion first. Beside that, the image you posted as an example is dated to 1958, i.e. after the Korean War, when DPRK got a lot of war trophies left behind by UN forces during the evacuation from the North. Anyway, hope forum administration will move this discussion to appropriate topic and we will continue there.

Просьба к админам - если возможно перенесите эти посты в соответствующую тему на форуме.
Заведомо спасибо.

Rohirrim> Ну и до кучи - боковичок корейского МПК.
Японское видение этого варианта с ПКР , и очередной скриншот

Seafang-45>> especially those SC-497 class sub chasers transferred to DPRK (North Korea).
Rohirrim> As to my knowledge no SC class chaser was transferred to other country from USSR. Partly they were returned to US in 1954, partly - sunk or dismantled in 1955-1956. Furthermore, DPRK never operated SC-497 class sub chasers - neither before Korean war or after. If I'm not mistaken several of SC chasers were in the lists of PLA Navy (captured from China Nationalist forces), but definitely not in DPRK Navy.
Rohirrim> Заведомо извиняюсь, если офф-топ...

I was inclined to you above view also, until I read this cable,

From PYONGYANG
Nº 16030 1340
30 May 1950

16033 16044

Special. Nº Nº 408-410

SPECIAL
FLASH

To VYSHINSKY (for the Politburo [instantsiya]).

I met with Kim Il Sung, at his request, on 29 May. At the beginning of the conversation, Kim Il Sung reported that the weapons and ammunition, which he had requested during [his] stay in Moscow, had mainly already arrived. The weapons had been transported to the newly formed divisions, and the delivery of weapons to the soldiers would be completed by 1 June. He then reported that he had gone to the new divisions and familiarized himself with the progress of military training and thinks that the divisions will be combat-ready by the end of June.

Kim Il Sung reported that, at his order, the chief of the general staff had finished the drafting of a decision in principle for an attack [nastuplenie]. The chief of the general staff reported the plan to him together with Soviet General Vasil'yev. He approved the decision, which had been made and the choice of the main blow during the attack. He asked me to meet with him, the chief of the general staff, and Soviet General Vasil'yev in order to look over this decision together. I declined such a joint meeting, referring to the fact that I would be familiarized with the decision by General Vasil'yev.

Kim Il Sung then reported that they are finishing organizational issues in the army by 1 June. The navy is somewhat behind as a consequence of the fact that they had still not received one trawler and one large subchaser [okhotnik] from the USSR note: "one trawler" and "one large subchaser" are circled]. The crews for these ships have been chosen, but they are not being trained inasmuch as these ships are not available. He asked me to take appropriate measures to speed up the arrival of the ships. I replied that according to the information available to me the ships would be delivered to Korea at the beginning of June.

Recipients:

Seafang-45>>> especially those SC-497 class sub chasers transferred to DPRK (North Korea).


After August 1945, ex-Japanese sub-chaser Ch-38 was handed over to the USSR, where it remained at the end of the war: Tsingdao, China.

Officially, it was ceded to the USSR in October 1947, according to Japanese records.

Looking for photo(s) and any history on the Russian period of service.

Thank you.

Seafang-45>> I was inclined to believe as above, until I read this cable from Pyongyang to Moscow
Per request:

Seafang-45>>> I was inclined to believe as above, until I read this cable from Pyongyang to Moscow
Seafang-45> or: .jpg

Flot> 45

This photo is SOUTH KOREAN "KSS-1" mini-sub [copyright: G. Jacobs Collection]

Seafang-45>>>> I was inclined to believe as above, until I read this cable from Pyongyang to Moscow
Seafang-45>> or: .jpg

I won't translate the whole document, but in a few words - this document says nothing about the NK ships or Navy. It speaks about the shortage of row materials and instruments for ammunition production (cartidges and projectiles) in N.Korea and asking to resolve the situation by sending the requested materials ASAP.

Seafang-45> The navy is somewhat behind as a consequence of the fact that they had still not received one trawler and one large subchaser [okhotnik] from the USSR note: "one trawler" and "one large subchaser" are circled].

Actually not a trawler in the document, but a mine sweepr (тральщик)

The large subchaser mentioned in the document is a Soviet Artillerist type (project 122), and it is still not clear if it was transferred before the start of the war or not. According to several sources it is highly likely that finally one of Artillerist class large subchasers was transferred to NK along with one Fugas class minsweeper (Project 53, aslo known as Tral class) in June 1950, but no official documents yet known to confirm it.

hufden> Японское видение этого варианта с ПКР , и очередной скриншот

В принципе место на корме допускает подобное "толкование" Судя по спутниковым снимкам даже те катера, на которых ПУ ПКР положены по штату стоят в базах без установленных на них канистр ПУ. Разве что только их кронштейны стоят. Так что, вполне возможно и на МПК они могут появиться...

Rohirrim> Actually .. in the document
Какая-то аномалия с этим советским т.н. "корейским архивом" , кусками периодически всплывает в РК и США , а в РФ недоступен

hufden> Какая-то аномалия с этим советским т.н. "корейским архивом"

И не говори. Я бы с удовольствием зарылся бы в их изучение. Впрочем, пока и Южно-Корейского архива хватает на интересные материалы.

hufden>> Какая-то аномалия с этим советским т.н. "корейским архивом"
Rohirrim> И не говори. Я бы с удовольствием зарылся бы в их изучение. Впрочем, пока и Южно-Корейского архива хватает на интересные материалы.

Кажись откопал. Некоторая часть переписки есть в оцифровке на сайте Вильсоновского центра, другая часть есть и в онлайн архиве Корейской истории, но увы "вкусные" документы там только для "внутреннего пользования".

В общем - чисто в качестве примера

Rohirrim> Кажись откопал. Некоторая часть переписки есть в оцифровке на сайте Вильсоновского центра
Надо брать ..©
Сам не могу , меня блокируют все


Рубик-джан , я дам Вам парабеллум внеочередной знак отличия , может там есть что-нибудь о реальных поставках для ВМС ?