Flame and holywar about special operation in Ukraine

westerninfo> (1) Something similar when USA made a detailed plan about an ?atomic power plant construction somewhere in the 1960's?

After, there was also a press campaign, and this numaerical algebra method was forbidden to use in great state investments: nobody couldn't bill much more, only within limits. (I can't find the project name)

ждан72> our authorities saw all this and understood perfectly well that it would all happen anyway,

I doubt. The minimum, that the international reserves could be saved by slow commercial deficit. (Not real commercial deficit but "fabricated" commercial deficit by a jungle of contracts.)

westerninfo>>>> To be
ждан72> our authorities saw all this and understood perfectly well that it would all happen anyway, well, let's say that the Russian Federation did not attack in February, and Ukraine attacked in March.

If Ukraine attacked the Donbass or Russia motherland in March, and Your army defend it, and meanwhile they destruct the attackers, there would be not a word. Not a single media campaign, nor sanctions. (Perhaps I exagere it: there would be some international media voices and that's all.)

ждан72> our authorities saw all this and understood perfectly well that it would all happen anyway,

Or if they foresaw that media answers after your attack, or they foresaw that the whole world will be against Russia, why they didn't invented something very-very good pretext? Why they didn't make a film? Or movie series like the Chernobyl on HBO? Why they didn't spread it in the whole world before february 24? (A Russian friendly western businessman could go to Hollywood and hire a good filmmaker to make a movie about injustices in Donbass, a good, fast, rich in adventures, some love movie for 20-50 millions usd. And spread it in the whole world.)

You have this Gerasimov doctrine: To occupy a country, let's say 1.000.000 soldiers is enough. But if the country is invaded with propaganda, only 15-20% of human force is enough. It seems that your army considered this Gerasimov-doctrine, but without using an effective propaganda.

So i doubt they foresaw the whole mess.

westerninfo> Or if they
and who will watch and listen to Russian propaganda in the West?
let me remind you that even RD was banned in Western countries, but the rest know what Western "proofs" are worth without a movie
. Here Almaz-Antey made a beautiful briefing on the Boeing shot down by the Ukrainian military in 1914. did anyone in the West believe in him?

westerninfo> If Ukraine attacked the Donbass)

no, the Western media would have shown it anyway, so it was Russia that attacked. and everyone would have believed it. how everyone believes that Russia attacked Georgia, or that Iraq had chemical weapons.
the West is very good at lying, and nothing can convince him, yet in the West they believe that NATO had the right to attack Yugoslavia, although they could not prove that there were crimes there. but they admitted that they gave out the corpses of terrorists for killed civilians.
well, we don't forget the story of the "White Helmets" either.

ждан72> and who will watch and listen to Russian propaganda in the West?
ждан72> let me remind you that even RD was banned in Western countries, but the rest know what Western "proofs" are worth without a movie
ждан72> . Here Almaz-Antey made a beautiful briefing on the Boeing shot down by the Ukrainian military in 1914. did anyone in the West believe in him?

Almaz-Antey I see in google, that it's a russian state missile maker... Not a good entity to build up a story.

No I say You have not your story spead in the world. It can be builded: unfortunately for example roumanians builded up in the west from 1870 to 1920 - 50 years - that Great-Hungary is an opressive country where minorities have no right to use their own languages, they have no schools, there is no legal security, I don't know how many lies. Meanwhile Great-Hungary (that was under the Habsbourgs) has a law, that if there is a minority above 20%, they can use their languages everywhere, even when they communicate with authorities. Even there was more primary school for Roumains in Transylvania (part of Great-Hungary) at 1910 than all primary schools in Roumania. Which country was a unification of Moldva and Wallachia.
Hungarian politicians said: we need nothing to do with roumanian propaganda, the world will see it's not true. The world didn't see: they divided our country to 7 parts after WW1. We are not so good at propaganda...

If a poor but independent country could build up his story (Roumania), a great country like Russia could build it also. But it's your affair. It's fucked now.

sam7> Как бы мы жили без Икарусов?
Прекрасно, свои модели быои в то время созданы.
sam7> Нормальная страна Венгрия, была немного недружелюбная, но, не меняя своего отношения к нам в резко меняющемся мире, оказалась дружелюбнее "братушек" из Болгарии.
Ну это сейчас, нашелся такой политик, а так ничего хорошего от них..

westerninfo>Russian Russians were not hanged on poles and Jews was not burned alive.
you are a nazi bastard

Western "proofs" are w

Hungary was independent only from 45 to the end of the 80s. and now it is a colony of the west. no need to distort. but you confirm that the West does not believe Russia, because.... yes, because it simply does not believe. you don't believe Almaz-Antey, but you believe an "independent group" that receives money from the United States and spreads an uncovered lie.

ждан72> Western "proofs" are w
ждан72> Hungary was independent only from 45 to the end of the 80s. and now it is a colony of the west. no need to distort. but you confirm that the West does not believe Russia, because.... yes, because it simply does not believe. you don't believe Almaz-Antey, but you believe an "independent group" that receives money from the United States and spreads an uncovered lie.

Hungary is colony of the west from 1990 to 2010. From 2010 there are some will to be independent. But Hungary is a little country, our leaders try to find some equilibre between great powers. It's not easy. Our PM would be a friend of Russia to find some equilibre against some Western stupidities. Not easy. 1945-1990: we were under influence of SovietUnion. Economically it was perhaps better (for the people, generally, from 1965-70), but there were no freedom of speech, no foreign relations, not possibilities to build wealth, etc.

Almaz-Antey: I didn't saw the film you mentioneed, it can be true of course. The problem is, that the filmmaker is a Russian state missile maker. So nobody in the west will watch this film. If a russian-friendly businessman goes to Hollywood with this Almaz-Antey story and they put a love strory in it, a young guy how tries to launch a startup in Kyev, etc - You could spread your (Russia) story to the world. The same for Donbass. The same for problems between Russia and Ukraine in the last 8 years. If Western see a lot of good films, they (or we) see the Russian side also as a side effect. And perhaps this conflict could be avoided if the world see and evaluates the russian side also.

(I try to show an example: there was this Chernobyl series in HBO. Russia said there was a lot of details which were not true. So Russia made a film about Chernobyl. If You compare them, the HBO series is 50 times better than the russian film. And people said it's a weak attempt to spread russian version.)

westerninfo> (I try to show an example: there was this Chernobyl series in HBO. Russia said there was a lot of details which were not true. So Russia made a film about Chernobyl. If You compare them, the HBO series is 50 times better than the russian film. And people said it's a weak attempt to spread russian version.

But meanwhile it was a weak attempt, we saw the russian version. Next time there could be a better film. 3rd time another, etc, etc. A computer game where some players are brave russians. So Your version could be spread in the world.

It could be a tool to avoid conflicts. Not only in Ukraine, but everywhere.)



(My post was somehow shortened)

You have the general Gerasimov, so your army knows that propaganda it's important. But it can work at all levels not only for military purposes. Good contracts can be achieved, also rights for people.

ut there were no freedom of speech, no foreign re

what makes you think that Hollywood will shoot about Russian cinema? what makes you think that such a movie will be allowed to rent at all?Yes, the USA is using Hollywood as a propaganda mouthpiece to spread lies about Russia. and not only about Russia. but to expect that this can be countered is like dreaming that the US will start buying vekger cartoons instead of Hollywood ones.

но в целом США воплотили в жизнь Ленинское - для продвижение пропоганды безграмотному населению лучше всего подходит кино и цирк. в наше время вместо цирка юмористические шоу и комедийные сериалы.

ждан72> ut there were no freedom of speech, no foreign re
ждан72> what makes you think that Hollywood will shoot about Russian cinema? what makes you think that such a movie will be allowed to rent at all?Yes, the USA is using Hollywood as a propaganda mouthpiece to spread lies about Russia. and not only about Russia. but to expect that this can be countered is like dreaming that the US will start buying vekger cartoons instead of Hollywood ones.

Perhaps not directly. There was a russian plan somewhere in the 1960? 70? 80's? to buy a great Hollywood studio and spread the socialist version of events with the help of movies and series. The owner would be a russian-friendly film director. I read it in 1995-98, it was an interview in a hungarian economic newspaper with a russian communist economist who was in pension at this time. It's not my idea.

ждан72> но в целом США воплотили в жизнь Ленинское - для продвижение пропоганды безграмотному населению лучше всего подходит кино и цирк. в наше время вместо цирка юмористические шоу и комедийные сериалы.

Yes it's true.

---

What do you think about a new scenario?

Now everybody in the west think Russian economy is collapsing, the army is super-weak, the moral is very low, Ukraine will win. There are some diminishing fears that Putin can use biological or chemical weapons or even atomic bombs. The majority thinks there will be not mass-destructing weapons, there will be a peace treaty not good for Ukraine, not good for Russia. It's the general opinion.

But perhaps we see only maskirovka? I mean Putin show us a picture of weak Russia, weak army, but meanwhile he's waiting. He waits that NATO weapons flow in Ukraine, there will be only a few anti-aircraft, anti-tank weapons in the West. Heavy weapons also will flow in Ukraine. And at some point there will be a surprise-event (black swan) and all this machinery will go to the hands of russian army.
China will stop chip production in Taiwan. Iran will block the strait of Hormuz, Saud-Arabia will sell oil for gold, not for usd (Iran, Venezuela, UAE also). Oil shortage. Wheat shortage. Immigration waves from Africa. The confiscation of 430 billion dollars: great nations will sell their goods for gold not for dollars (or barter), so USA cann't print money, they need to produce, as other nations.

I don't think, generally only one great surprise comes, but sometime there are firework of surprises... What's your opinion?

westerninfo> I don't think, ?

Putin did not show Russia and the army weak, he has just been saying for many years that we are strong and do not make us angry. It was just the propaganda of the Western media that assured you that Russia is weak. What for? Well, probably so that Ukraine (and Georgia before that) would be bolder and attack us.
Russia did not wait for something to happen there or for the West to supply weapons, we hoped that the Minsk agreements would be implemented and common sense would come to the heads of Western and Ukrainian politicians.
Everyone knows that the USA lives by printing money and not by earning money, but everyone is afraid that when trying to fill up the hegemon, he will fill up the whole world with his shit. Therefore, even those who are against the United States still do not want to bring it down too quickly.
Moreover, the American regime has a lot of psychological and mental complexes, and they can arrange an apocalypse.

westerninfo> In general, briefly: Because I think it was not a simple provocaton, but a well-planned, constructed one
It's an open secret.

westerninfo> I am persuaded, that Putin did not saw that the whole world will be united against him
"The whole world" consists of USA and Co. It's not actually a surprise.

westerninfo> in a second, nor he foresaw Russian international reserves will be confiscated, nor he saw that Ukraine resistance will be elevated to a high level by weapons and media.
Do you really think that Russian analytic structures are naive?

Russia tried to negotiate with US/EU for months. The whole thing started last summer. Almost a year ago.


westerninfo> Perhaps it's a good moment to finish the conflict without risking a great defeat.

Do you actually believe that anyone here could even think about attempting to convey this kind of stuff to anyone? Again - I don't want to be rude, and I mean it, but this isn't even naivety - it's something else.

westerninfo> If Ukraine attacked the Donbass or Russia motherland in March, and Your army defend it, and meanwhile they destruct the attackers, there would be not a word. Not a single media campaign, nor sanctions.
Stop lying.
Pre-war info campaign against russia started at october 2021 together with increase of intencity in supplying UA with weapons, pumping eastern europe with weapons and intencifying of intelligence.
Everything is documented in various news sources. And here as well.
even taking only my own posts -

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this thread starting from Возможная агрессия США на Россию в европейском регионе [Bredonosec#12.09.21 14:18]

Everything was obvious well before.
Hence stop fucking our brains with your lies.

s.P.> Do you really think that Russian analytic structures are naive?

At some point analytic capacity was overburdened, and Your leadership was behind the events. I think. (But I am only a hobbist and generally I try to foresee economic events, not political events.)

westerninfo>> Perhaps it's a good moment to finish the conflict without risking a great defeat.
s.P.> Do you actually believe that anyone here could even think about attempting to convey this kind of stuff to anyone? Again - I don't want to be rude, and I mean it, but this isn't even naivety - it's something else.

Perhaps I understand something from this. I didn't want any harm not for myself, not any harm for answerers here. I read from these things in 1992, in Solzhetnytsin's book.

So I wish You a good luck to make an agreement with your brother nation.
Sometimes I try to come back and see what happens in this forum. (Russia-Ukraine war topic)

westerninfo> Russia is isolated and dehumanized now.

та Вы шо? а когда Россия не была изолированна и расчеловечена?


westerninfo> (I am not Russian friendly.
westerninfo> Please make a fucking cease-fire ASAP and defend yourself.

а как Вы оцениваете ценность совета врага?
и насколько разумно следовать совету врага?

westerninfo> our 1956.

Вы, да и многие венгры вообще, слишком комплексуете по 1956 году.
пожалуйста, подумайте над тем, что делали венгры с юго-западными русскими, которых Вы сейчас называете украинцами, последние лет восемьсот.

westerninfo>> Please make a fucking cease-fire ASAP and defend yourself.
Н-12> а как Вы оцениваете ценность совета врага?
Н-12> и насколько разумно следовать совету врага?

I am not a friend of Russia. But I am not an ennemy of Russia!

Russians say it's not a Ukraine - Russia war. Russians say it's a Russia - US proxy war, Ukraine is only a tool. I think you were lured in this war. US is governed by jewish mega-capital. US is governed by jews. So Russia is now in a proxy war: Russia versus word jewry. (Not Russia vs America)

Unfortunately You fight against Ukraine people and not against jewish billionaires. I fear if You loose, there will be no future for white people, nowhere in this planet. You are the last white atomic power.
(Yes: i don't like jews. My father and mother was communist, i was also leftist. Never in my life i didn't hurt any nation: not jews, not russians, not ukraines, not gipsies, nobody. When I meet a great trouble, jews in my country made a huge hit on me. I almost died years ago: now I hate jews. This event opened my eyes: i see jews as devils on earth.)


I think Your opponent had thousands of very-very detailed plans, and probabilities for each plan. What to do if Russia will make this. What if Russia will react that whay. I tak dalse. They have an information processing and predicting capacity 30-50-100 times than the Russian state. They evaluate what your army will make and they try to make traps, surprises, counter-steps etc.

I fear they have a plan to close this conflict very fast. They demonstrate to the world how bad is Russia. They dehumanize Russians. And they will finish the conflict on one single day. That's why I say please make a cease-fire and defend your country: the borders, the airspace and also the homeland. They will try a spectacular endgame with minimal casualties.

westerninfo> Russians say it's not a Ukraine - Russia war. Russians say it's a Russia - US proxy war, Ukraine is only a tool. I think you were lured in this war. US is governed by jewish mega-capital. US is governed by jews. So Russia is now in a proxy war: Russia versus word jewry. (Not Russia vs America)

Jesus Christ... Straight out of Mein Kampf. Even less subtle than what Azov and their leadership writes and believes, and pretty much the definition of what this operation is trying to put down.

Not everything in the world is the result of behind-the-scenes meddling of evil, alien Jew-Lizards.

zaitcev> My Euro friend was venting a few minutes ago

Your post is a reinforcement of my point of view.
I wrote this at 3 mars 2022, i registrated here, this forum the same day (your admins can check this: registration mail arrived at 7h24, 3 mars 2022, one or two hours difference can be, different time zones). But i thought it's your problem, Russia is clever, they will see it's not good for anybody and they will find a solution for Ukraine and Russia - so i didn't post this:


(...)
Goals of the alliance against Russia:
1.USA friendly puppet government
2.Nuclear disarmament of Russia
3.Donation (sale for kopeks) of every lucrative great Russian enterprise to US firms and jewish oligarchs
4.Ukraine receives back Luhansk, Donetsk and the Crimea
5.Since Russia is the last great country and atomic power governed by white nationalists - this allience don't want white nationalists anymore in the foreseeable future

Members of the alliance:
1.USA - Yeltsin was a good puppet for them, he made what they wanted. Shock-therapy, sale of state property for kopeks, US monopoly in international affairs
2.Jewish businessmen who become billionaires in the 1990's by stealing the state property, but Putin took back the state property in the 2000's, and
2.5.Western mega firms who bought property from the new jewish billionaires but they had to give back a lot of wealth to the russian state
3.Ukraine - they suffer casualties, Zelensky plays a provocative role against Russia and a hero in Ukraine they hope they can take back every territories

How they (the alliance and their friends) defeat Your country?
From 2015,
(...)


The "how" has no importance, they should have several plans, everybody can invent realistic and unrealistic scenarios with - probably - minimal casualties. The next day, 4 mars 2022 Zelensky "call the world jewry to help Ukraine". From this date, it's public, that Your country fights against jewish controlled money, media and political leaders. They want Russia to bleed to misery and change his regime.

From 7 april 2022 I also invented a particular, fast, spectacular, unexpected scenario, how they can try to finish the war in 1 day, with minimal casualties. It has no importance, probably my scenario is too undetailed, they can have several much better plans, if one is not working or derailed, they shift to another.


Not only they use drones and modern weaponry - it's bad for Russia, but perhaps not a catastrophe.

The real problem: they PREDICT what your leadership, army, population will make. They have the whole Russian internet, they saved it before. They have all profiles they could reach. They bought all databases legal or illegal that could be bought. So they try to predict what a soldier, a military leader, etc will make in a particular situation. Your ennemies know what soldier has a 1 year daughter, who is indebted, who fears from fire, etc. (If somebody goes to shit in his house in Europe, when he finished, there are good chances he will wash his hands. It's a prediction of great probability, a first step. NATO algorithms can make MUCH more predictions...)


So please, make a cease-fire and defend your country, try to save your country. It's fucked totally from the beginning, they waited for You. They carefully prepared a military, economic, intelligence, information-war and human rights trap. I think it has not worth to kill Ukraine civils, nor soldiers, nor Russian conscripts. It's fucked. It was from the beginning.